Episode 5: What a shame!

[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to iGB podcast iGaming Checkup with Dr. Eyal. Brought to you by iGB in partnership with RubyPlay. I am Dr. Eyal. I've been passionate about games and the people that makes them for many years. Humans have been playing games of chance even before we could write. So what is going on here? Why gambling games are so central to our experience as a species and why something as simple as a slot machine is also the hardest game to make sure there are plenty of igaming podcasts out there covering industry trends and headlines, but this isn't just more of the same. We are here to challenge assumptions, invite sideways thinkers and industry outsiders, and explore the complexity of an ever evolving, fascinating and innovative space. If you are ready to think differently about iGaming, you are in the right place. Let's go. What a shame. Talking about shame in igaming industry. I'm joined here with Alex Tomic, the co founder of Alea. And both of us being executive in the iGaming industry, I always really like showing my face and being really straightforward about being proud to be a part of the industry and talking about the industry. And I know that you like this as well. So as you can see, I'm quite front about this. Maybe not now I'm front about this. So I think that thinking about igaming in the context of really being proud to be a part of the industry, being proud to make the kind of products that we make, the kind of services that we make both as RubyPlay as a content provider, Alia as aggregator. But I do find that when, when we, we talk, when, when I talk with people in the industry and sometimes with, with employees, you, you find that. Imagine the following. You're in a cocktail party with friends. It's not an Alia event, unfortunately, one of those like really nice events in, in the theater or something, you're not in a RubyPlay event in a nice Moroccan style villa. You are just with your friends and people come and ask you, so what do you do for a living? And often people in igaming might not come up and say, well, I work in iGaming, I create gambling games, I promote, you know, I promote gambling content, I'm an affiliate of gambling content, I'm an aggregator, they will say something like, I'm in it. I work on games, I'm in entertainment. And I think that this is, after I've heard this a few times, I thought this is a really interesting topic to bring and talk about. It's slightly controversial and I think that this is something that is quite dear to you as well. Alex, what's your feeling when you talk about B2B? Shame. B2C shame. What's your take on that? [00:03:13] Speaker B: So, first of all, Eyal. Thank you for having me. And it's a beautiful ceiling you got there, huh? [00:03:22] Speaker A: It's a real. It's not a bad. The actual room looks like this. Yes, it's quite nice. [00:03:28] Speaker B: It looks like a Michelangelo thing. You know, as a B2B, there's less stigma than as a B2C. I used to run a B2C before it was called Slot Million. And you write about the cocktail, Dina. Conversations where people would ask you, what do you do? And you would say, I work in iGaming. And actually, the word iGaming itself shows the shame that the stigma that online gambling is carrying with it. So we don't call in online gambling. We call it I gaming. You know, and there's a reason for that. I think it was back in time, in order to be able to advertise on Google, we would try to make Google or other platform believe that what we were doing was closer to gaming than to gambling. Okay, And I have a story. I remember I went to a restaurant, and I was dining there at the bar, alone, by myself. Like I. I used to do a lot back in the years when I was drinking. I don't drink anymore. I stopped drinking, like 1/2 year ago. I don't drink one drop of alcohol anymore. Back in time, I was drinking quite heavily. And I would go at the bar, and the waiter, he was 24 years old, very smart gentleman, asked me, what are you doing? And say, I'm in online gambling. He said, wow, that's. That's. That's a tough one. I said, why? Why do you say that? It's. It's because it's addictive. And I said, well, my friends, you're serving me wine and whiskeys every night. And you probably have noticed that I drink too much. And you keep doing that, you know, so, I mean, what's the difference between what you do and what I do? And he said, there's a difference. And that I've heard from a psychologist that was specified that was specialized. Sorry. In addictology is when you're addicted to a product, there is no limit. So he says, there's so much that your body can take, let's say it's a bottle of whiskey, and then you're going to stop when there is no product behind. If we talk about addiction, there's no limits. The Only limit is your bankroll. And that is going to drive you to more questionable behaviors where you're going to try to get money in order to fuel that addiction. And I thought, wow, that guy nailed it. You know, there is something in gambling where if you get addicted, it's going to push you towards more dangerous type of behavior. The funny thing is that years after that, I talked with brother and I knew his brother, he was a chef of the restaurant. And he said, swani, you had this conversation with my brother, with my younger brother was the barman, because I'm an ex gambling addict. And that's why the brother got his experience from. Now, that said, apart from gambling addiction, I believe there's something very sacred in gambling. And I would like to open the conversation and go there because we are all asking ourselves, are we bringing value to society? And most of us are lying to ourselves. We don't want to see, we don't want to go into the question. And I'm very happy to be here to dive into it. So do we bring value to society? Yes. No. We could consider that we don't bring any value to society, or we could consider that we bring value to society because we entertain people. But I would like to go a little bit further into the nature of gambling and I would even say the sacred nature of gambling, and which is the following. Gambling is the only setup where you enter the arena where we are going to play a game. And that arena could be a chessboard, could be a monopoly, could be football, could be anything where we play a game. And through the proxy of money, if you are wounded, sorry, on the play field, you come back wounded. In real life, if you are victorious on the, in the game, you come back victorious in the real life. And that's something that no other setup can provide you. And I find that magical. I, I would like to hear your thoughts about that. [00:08:37] Speaker A: I, I think I'd like to decompose a few of the things that you said. So first of all, I, I think that you can debate that. To go back to the restaurant example, you can debate that there's a different type of addiction. But I would, I would argue that any type of addiction is not a good thing. And you can have alcohol addiction, where, you know, game, gaming addiction, gambling addiction, sex addiction. Addiction is, is not a very good word. Like, nobody says addiction in a positive context, right? Like, so you might say obsession in a positive context. But I've never heard someone promote addiction as a good thing. That happens to you where you might promote obsession as a good thing that might happen to you. And, and just to say a couple of words on that, like I often use the example of, of alcohol as, as A for you know, for say for a B2B or even a B2C. Like if you're a B2B in the alcohol industry or B2C in the alcohol industry, most people would feel comfortable, quite comfortable. And I had many people telling me they're working in a, in a brewery, a vodka brewery, a red wine brewery, a beer brewery and quite happily and they even there's some, some refined element about this. Like you know, like. Yeah, I, I now and, and just to give an example, this, this is a wine, this is a, this is a, a whiskey bottle like this, this thing here that you see, right. And just imagine how much effort went into making such a beautiful product to promote alcohol. So, so if, if you work in the alcohol industry, you'll make the most beautiful product, the most beautiful a bottle, the tastiest vodka, you'll add strawberry and you put a worm in your tequila and all of those things to actually get people to enjoy your product the best you can. And yes, there's going to be some element of addiction at the tail of the statistics of people that engage with your, with your product. And, and this is why I think that the element of, of of addiction is not a really good way reason to feel guilty specifically about igaming. And I think that you know, like the, the, the, the other side of this, like if you thinking of, of igaming in general, like the, the, the, the the reputation of like B2B or even B2C taking advantage of you know, vulnerability and, and add it might be overstretched. Now to relate to your other point. What's the value? I think that one can argue well yes, maybe that we are not heart surgeons. We don't solve cancer, we don't shoot rockets to the moon, we don't participate in the at risk mission by NASA. We don't do things like that. Nevertheless, it's a deep question and I totally agree with you. Does the experience of gambling bring anything of value to us as a society? And I think that just like what you said, I completely connect to it. Gambling is a simulation. And not just gambling, but games of chance in general is a simulation of reality that because you are putting forward a resource, in this case money or in the context of gaming, some game resource that can be rare or precious, it causes real pain in the real world, unlike other games, especially with gambling games, especially with resources like money that is a limited resource, there is a real pain, you get a real injury that you might not feel it on your flesh, but you feel it on your soul, right? And I think that if you take this point for example, and say, like, what do we see in. In history even you'd see amazing evidence that first of all, the first time where the oldest archeological finding we have is not of writing, is of gambling. Both, you know, like we find dice that 7,000 years old that it looks the same like the one we have today. And even if you look at ancient, ancient drawing of cavemen, people, they usually display very extreme situations of engaging with danger. And I think that this is the core of that phenomenon where we feel that gambling is a simulation of what happens in the real world world. So therefore, if I'm about to go and hunt for the mammoth and walk in the jungle in the alliance, and I want to know how lucky am I to survive? I can play a game of chance, I can play a gambling game and then the outcome measure, help me measure how lucky I am. And. And measuring how lucky I am is an extremely important thing that then impact me for real in the real world. So this is something that. The transitivity of luck or how we measure and experience how much luck we possess at any given point in time is extremely important for us as individuals and for us as a species. And I think that this is why games of chance and gambling is tapping into this really deep sense of connection to reality that no other game does. So what do you think about that? [00:14:14] Speaker B: So you've touched a very important point with cheese. Chance assessments or luck assessment. And you could even say luck manipulation or luck sculpting. It's very well described in a novel called the Last Call, where the hero is playing a very strange, wicked game, which is a blackjack game with tarot cards. And basically they're playing their souls. They're not really that. It's not even their souls. They're playing their body. It's called the Assumption. The game is called the Assumption. It's a deep, terrifying book. It's resembles a little bit like American Gods. There's gods or semi gods that are present around us. We don't really know who they are. And they manipulate us through these games that we don't really know the rules as humans, but they possess us using these games. So I'm not a. I'm not a gambler myself, but what I do usually I always go in a hotel where I can, where there's a Casino and I go and I sit at the usually blackjack or table and I would play and the first thing I would do, as you said, I will assess my level of luck. Okay, so I'm playing and I'm seeing am I lucky tonight? Am I not lucky tonight? Something I've told years ago in an interview is really assessing my luck that night. So let's say that I put one, not, sorry, €1,000 on the table and I start playing with €1,000. [00:16:14] Speaker A: There's a benefit of being the co. [00:16:16] Speaker B: Founder of Alea, you know, 1,000, not 100,000, just 1,000. It's okay. I've seen people playing with millions. So I put just €1,000 and let's say that's what I'm willing to spend tonight. It's not just what I'm willing to spend, it's what I know I'm going to spend. And I'm going to explain you why. Well, I, I, I have this €1,000. I play and then what I play, I, I will see quickly if my level of luck is high or is low. Basically I can lose the money very fast. Or we go into the night and this €1,000 became 5,000, 10,000, sometimes more euro. And I have all these chips accumulating and it's three or four o' clock in the morning and now something else is gonna happen. We are the luck assessments. Okay, so I have, let's say €10,000 now on the table in chips. I have assessed that I have a good level of luck and now I'm gonna luck, I'm gonna manipulate luck. And how I'm gonna manipulate luck, this could be very controversial because there are people that are winning at casinos and that are very wealthy. I consider that me, myself being in the gambling industry, I can't win as the house. Back in time, when I was doing that, I was running online casinos, sorry, B2C operations, and win as a player. So what I would do, I would start betting and doubling all the time and the dealers will look at me like, what the is he doing? And I would do that until I lose. [00:17:59] Speaker A: You know that strategy usually do it until you win, but usually you end up being broke. [00:18:05] Speaker B: It's a martingale, basically, it's a martingale. But my, my goal here is to lose all the money and not take not even the €1,000 that I put on the table. I put that €1,000 in order to play the game. So what, what, what, what I'm doing, basically imagine there's a Goddess or God of luck that gave me, that wins. And I'm saying in a very respectful, respectful way, thank you, but no thank you. Please take it back and if I may offer it to you as an offering, you know, please take it as an offering from me because I need it there. And there is the real life. And the real life, it doesn't mean necessarily that it needs. In my business where I do play with tens of millions per year, like literally like big amounts of money, I also need in my love life, I need, with my health, with anything else, I need that luck elsewhere. And I don't want to use that luck. Luck on the blackjack table, it's the opposite. I want to get credit of luck on the blackjack table. I want to lose on the blackjack table so I can win there. And in French we say happy in games of luck, happy in luck, unhappy in love, and you can't take it from everywhere. So that would be luck assessment and luck manipulation. [00:19:54] Speaker A: So imagine the two of us are two Roman soldiers in the lead, two legionnaires, right in, you know, fighting, fighting in, in Judea 2,000 years ago. How do we know we're going to survive storming the Masada the next day? Well, we play games of chance and we have archaeological findings of Roman soldiers playing games of chance. We also have archeological findings of the Jewish defenders playing games of chance as they were thrown by the Romans. We see the same kind of thing all throughout the ages. We see it, you know, in the battle of Gallipoli, you had the Anzac playing two up, you know, with two coins, measuring, measuring the luck, just like you said, saying, I want to know how lucky I'm going to be. I want to be able to manipulate my luck. We see exactly the same thing on D day the night before. American soldiers, Anzac soldiers, British soldiers, all playing games of games of chance with cards, with coins. That feeling, that really deep feeling of luck and the ability to assess luck and, and, and, and feeling that luck from one area of life impacts another area of life. It also creates reality to some extent because if you feel very lucky, then you maybe make decisions in a way that is more bold. And you know what they said, the luck, luck favors the bold. But generally speaking, we find for most of us in life when we come confident to, to a challenge, we are much more likely to, to cross it. And if luck can get, give can fill with this confident. Putting aside any, let's say some kind of a somewhat spiritual almost argument, say that completely from a rational standpoint, if you Believe in your luck, you probably would manifest, manifest that luck. And I think that gaming and, and, and gambling actually creates this on a massive scale. And we can't ignore the importance of it for, for players, players engaging with those lucks they enjoy. With games of chance, they enjoy and they, they measure the, the luck. And there's lots of supporting evidence and, and research around, around that point of view. So I think that's something that it's, it's, you know, it's maybe not talked about. And yes, maybe it's not like solving cancer, but it does of value. People that play games of, of chance, people that play gambling games, for them, it's very meaningful for them, Some of them is spiritual. For them, it's something that can really take them from the day to day to a different run. And this is the kind of service we provide millions of players globally. And I don't think this is like with the approach of saying, hey, you know, this is something that has exploratory nature to it. It's really simplifying it to an extent that is totally blind in my opinion. That way I feel really good about the work that we do in igaming because we, we provide a really important type of entertainment that no other type of entertainment does. And talking about entertainment, you can also see that in terms of the, the, the image. You know, you've got, you've got like a movie, the Casino Royale or Rounders with Matt Damon or you know, the Hangover. And you can see that gambling and casinos can be portrayed in very different ways and sometimes quite a positive way. So I'm wondering how much of the stigma that we have in igaming is a result of culture and popular culture that we live in and surrounded with. [00:23:42] Speaker B: So there's probably the aspect that the house always wins and that there are questionable individuals that are involved in gambling, generally gambling operation. And I mean you. We all know how it started in Las Vegas with the Mafia, Bugsy Siegel and, and we know all that imagery around gambling casino with De Niro and Danny DeVito. There's a lot of movies around that. [00:24:29] Speaker A: El Capone on the alcohol side. But some of it is because of the regulatory reality that pushes this kind of entertainment to the hands of illegal elements. It's a lot of attention is with the war of vice, own vice, with regulators that think that gaming is evil and creating environments where the only people that end up in those industries are elements that are problematic, but not because of the nature of gaming rather than the nature of the environment created for gaming, for alcohol in about 100 years ago by the war on sin, really, rather than actual rational approach. [00:25:18] Speaker B: But it may also attract people. This imagery attract people. They want to be part of it. They like this gangster imagery. I mean, there's a chain of restaurants. I've seen Barcelona. It's where the mafia sits. So you're eating in the restaurant where the mafia. I wouldn't eat there personally in steakhouse. But this imagery do do attract people. Now, I think that in online gambling, we have much less of this aspect. It's a very much more clean industry than the brick and mortar gambling industry, for sure. And there's one last thing. I think gambling is sacred. There is something sacred in gambling. The only thing that I could challenge is the fact that the players are playing against the house and the house is taking an edge on the fact that the players are losing. So basically, player is playing against the house. There is a house edge. The house always win. And when the player loses, the house wins. Okay, if it wasn't like that. And that's why I'm very. I'm a very big promoter of P2P gaming. I love P2P gaming. I love when the house organizes the gambling events and take a stake. Like in poker, like in prediction market. In any time of betting where two people, two teams are gonna sit in front of each other and say, I believe this is gonna be the win the outcome of this event, and I believe this is gonna be the outcome of this event. And the house is in between, organizes the events and take, let's say, 5%, which would be exactly the same thing, 5% more or less than the house hedge on a slot machine or whatever. Okay, so let's say that the house. [00:27:43] Speaker A: The thing is though, in that reality, there's a few problems. First of all, you require really high level of skill, and usually it can get very predatory because good players who have the skill would prey on weaker players and. And take the. The money. The other thing is for the house, for the casino, they can. They can what we have like max exposure. They can actually be in a reality when a single player that has no skill other than clicking a button of a slot machine end up with a really, really large win for them to be able to cover that risk and. And provide this experience, there has to be some kind of an. Of an edge on their house. But I want to connect to kind of like what you said also about to. I used to work in the financial industry, and one thing we used to do for fun, we all Go to the dog races back in, in Sydney. Right. And, and the game was one of us will be the house. We play even Oz with it with a slight edge. But everyone would go and bet on the, on the lottery tickets on the dog that is completely unlikely to win. And you know you're probably going to end the evening with quite a lot of money in your pocket. But the fear on your face even with that age that your max exposure going to be hit because one of the other traders is going to hit with that very unlikely dog and you're going to be parting from, you know, with your month salary. That was an experience. So I feel sometimes how it is to be the house when you have a bunch of high rollers and you don't have a big bankroll. [00:29:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:13] Speaker A: I think there's a balance there that we can't ignore. So the other thing I wanted to say and, and kind of like touch to, to a final point because you know in Alea you've won so many times. I'm so proud of you. I told you that in so many, in so many conversations we had, you won the best employer. And, and Alea is, is an exemplary employer in the kind of, in the kind of environment you create for your employees. You know, you have, you have a thermoboric chamber, you have a gym, a sauna, you have an ice bath which you and I dunked at more than once. And this kind of environment is very good. Like there's a whole push like you said yourself, like you, you, you stop drinking. There's a whole push in alignment employees of, of health and, and, and lifestyle. And you see like for us as an employer and RubyPlay as well, we, we, we have a really, really low churn of employees. People that come and roll for RubyPlay, most of them stay year over year. Right now is below, below 4%. So, so our employees stays with us and stay with us for years and years. We, we put a lot of. [00:30:28] Speaker B: And you don't, and you don't have offices. [00:30:30] Speaker A: And, and yeah we are, we are a work from home company with, with no offices, which is a challenge, A challenge on its own. But, but the, the, the employees are happy employees. Your employees, all employees are happy employees. You know, so creating that kind of a workplace within the igaming context, I think it's extremely important. What do you say? [00:30:52] Speaker B: I agree with you. And there's a lot of competition in igaming. A lot of people are moving from companies to companies. We have, well in slightly different position because we have offices in Barcelona. There are other gaming companies. Barcelona. Some big gaming companies moved their tech people in Valencia, which is just a couple of hours from where we are. But to be completely honest, our competitors are global, social point, very big companies that are paying very big salaries for developers. You know, and when Covid hit, it was even American companies that were recruiting completely remotely. And we have chosen a very counter intuitive approach, especially at that time. 2020, 2021 was to build a house, build offices and bring people to the office and give them a reason to come here. Whether it's when we opened the gym at the beginning, nobody was coming, you know, so we had to put personal trainers. And then they start coming and now they train each other. It's amazing to see it. And they do chin. I mean all day. And nobody was doing ice bus at the beginning. And now there's like 10 people queuing every morning to do, to do ice massage. So it takes time, but it works. But we wanted to build a sense of physicality. But it comes from my own experience. I'm an entrepreneur and when I started my company 20 years ago, I could not work from home and I was working for myself. And so that's why we decided to, to. To. To do it this way. And we wanted to bring as much value as we could and things that Monet couldn't buy. I don't want to go too much into that, but the hyperbaric chamber, we acquired it in March 2020 with COVID hit Barcelona because we, we really wanted to save the life of our employees. If you had Covid, you were sent to a, to. To. To an hospital and they were putting you this mask and they were blowing oxygen into your lungs and it wasn't working. But with an hyperbaric chamber, you could literally put somebody in there and they could survive. And it happened to me several times. I had four or five times Covid and I could see my oxygen level drop. But when I was going into the upper B chamber that we go back up and now what we use it for, we have. Look at us. [00:33:41] Speaker A: igaming. We're saving lives of our employees. [00:33:45] Speaker B: I mean, we take care of our own people, which just the last thing I wanted to add. Now we have people and we probably promoted a lot that are bringing their parents to the hyperbaric chamber. So for example, I, I can say his name because he's been public about it. Jordy, our CEO is bringing his father that Alzheimer and he's got, he's getting a great recovery. He's been doing it for more than a year, I think now. And he can do things he couldn't do before. It's not just his stop the progression that it went back. And now he's much better than what he was at the beginning. There's another employee, I won't say his name because he didn't go public about it. Brought his father that couldn't hear. He had stingy juice and strong ear loss. He recovered like 20, 30% of his ear loss in a couple of sessions. So we try to foster, to build an environment that want people to come and work together because we, we believe that when we are together, we spend time together. There's something that's happening, some kind of magic that's happening that doesn't happen when we work remote. And I know you've chosen a completely opposite approach and I would like to hear you just before you start, I would like to hear you about how you do that because for me it's completely crazy. And actually we have one of our ex employees who went to work with you guys and she seems apparently very happy where she is now. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Yes, yes. But the thing is, I think that it's a management challenge really. It's just creating awareness of the needs of your employees. But I think I just want to connect to you, talk about the employees are already there. But do you feel that as an industry we have a problem attracting strong talents or do you feel that? [00:35:48] Speaker B: What do you think? Tell me for me, I've said so many times, obviously we don't attract the smartest people in the room. That's the expression I use. We don't attract the smartest people in the room. Definitely not. [00:36:03] Speaker A: I feel that for us, the first of all, because of the stigma of igaming, there's the, the, there is a friction when you approach someone, hey, you know, I'd like you to come and work with me. Then there's this kind of friction. And, and of course, I had when hiring, you know what, my game design team all have PhDs in, in, in mathematics, physics and all that. And when I was approaching people from academia, there's like some of them say wave. We don't, we don't really want to touch this. Yeah. So going past those point though, when you actually can get to get to strong talent and I'm really, I mean the smartest people in the room and show them the complexity of problems that we work on, I see a flip. So I can give you an example with a few mathematicians that now are working in the industry. When I Tell them, okay, look, you don't have to, but check out this problem that we've been working on. And then I get a call three days later when I'm like, I couldn't sleep for three days. This problem is fascinating. I really want to work somewhere where I work on these kind of problems. And you can see the same kind of thing with the tech. The magnitude of how many transactions an average company would do a day. A larger company, we can do more transactions than a large credit card company per day. The complexity of the tech, the complexity of the problem is insane. And I do see that when, when you get to the top talent and get them to see the complexity of the problems, they get really, really excited and they forget of the stigma when they see they meet with people like you, like me, people that feel comfortable being vocal about working in igaming, they go, wait a second, maybe there's something good to do here. And I think that kind of an episode like this, and in general, this kind of conversation of feeling comfortable and proud of being a part of iGaming and running companies of people that are happy is really important part of really working and improving that kind of stigma that igaming has. [00:38:10] Speaker B: You're completely right. There is a stigma. And many igaming companies solve this stigma by recruiting only people that are already working in the iGaming industry. So that's the easy way. The problem is that we are a little bit like an inbred industry. We spend too much time with each other. So we have this tunnel vision. And people that we've been working in the industry for 10, 20 years, they come up with the same solutions to the same problems. And in Alea, most of the people we recruit, probably 80% of the people who recruit are coming from non gaming background. Jordy, our CEO, a CEO now who was recruited as a CEO, come from a completely different background. Our COO Ramon, come from completely different background as CTO. Also my Co-Founder and CPO Charlotte, come from different background. I mean, every single one of them come from a different background. The only people we're taking, we're considering coming from the I gaming industry is account managers and sales because they have a network, okay? They have an I Gaming network. Otherwise, we believe that I gaming can be taught, can, can be learned. Okay? There's a, there's a learning curve. Curve. It's going to take a little bit more time, but you have access to a pool of people that's much wider. And as it's much wider, you have more statistically more chances to get smarter people. [00:39:58] Speaker A: I believe that that's true. So, Alex, thanks a lot for joining me in this really interesting conversation. I think we ran out of time. Actually we were overtime, but that was great. [00:40:07] Speaker B: Did we. Okay. [00:40:08] Speaker A: And yeah, look, I think that it's so important for us, the ikigai. You wake up in the morning, do stuff that you love doing. I hope that this, this conversation maybe help some people of putting things in perspective and maybe enjoying tomorrow a bit more than they have today. And yeah, so let's, let's keep it up. [00:40:32] Speaker B: Thank you for inviting me to this conversation. And I have a little thought for Eamon because he talked about ETI and he named his, his investment from Ikigai because he believes in this, in these principles. And actually he offered me the book, which I still didn't read, but I need to read because the concept of ikigai is amazing and that's a very good way to close this conversation. [00:41:01] Speaker A: Thank. Thank you. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:41:04] Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of IGB podcast igaming checkup with Dr. Royal. There's plenty more to come, so stay with us for more eye opening, thought provoking and stigma challenging conversations that dig deeper into the world of igaming.